Sound Women

by Liz Jaynes

I’m sitting in a studio with Mary Kalemkerian and it dawns on me that this is probably the last time I’ll do so…

For those that haven’t encountered the pint-sized, bold Scot who is Mary K, she’s the Head of Programmes at Radio 4 Extra, the BBC’s digital station for drama and comedy.  After successfully launching the station in 2002 (then called BBC 7) she’s been it’s beating heart for the last ten years – in 2008 winning the prestigious Programmer of the Year Award at the Sonys.

I’ve worked with Mary for seven of those ten years, but that’s all about to change.  After a successful career that has spanned four decades, Mary is hanging up her headphones and quickstepping into the sunset.

In her final week at the BBC, she found time to chat to Sound Women…

With you as Head of Programmes, Radio 4 Extra has consistently held onto the Number 1 spot and been the highest listened to digital station.  Were you disappointed that you didn’t win a Sony at the recent awards?

It was a big buzz making it into the top three and being nominated for Station of the Year.  We were up against the World Service and Liverpool’s Radio City, a fantastic station.  I was pleased that City got it. If another BBC station had got it over us I might have been disappointed, but the fact that we were in the top three made me feel really good.

Part of the key to Radio 4 Extra’s success is that you are great at persuading people to do things. What’s been your greatest coup?

This is quite a hard one…  I think maybe getting Alan Bennett to write BBC Radio 7’s first commission.  He wrote a monologue for Thora Hird, it was the very last thing she ever did. It was written especially for us, and that felt excellent.

How did you persuade him?

A lot of it’s to do with your relationships with people.  Fostering good relationships is really, really important.  I’ve always treated writers and performers with a lot of respect.  I’ve always tried to share ideas and nurture them.

Your radio career started to take off after the age of 40. Are you proof that age is not an issue in radio?

I don’t think age is an issue.  I think it was at one time but I was still getting interviews in my forties and fifties.  It might be different on television and I’m not on screen, but nobody ever asks my age at all.

What changes have you noticed happening in the radio industry during your career?

Technically there have been massive changes.  The advent of social media.  I think things are less laddish now.  If you look at Radio 1 in the 70s and 80s, I think it was a laddish community.

You’ve said you went for a lot of jobs but you didn’t get them until you decided to be yourself.

Exactly.  When I first went for BBC interviews, because everyone else spoke posh, I though I wouldn’t get a look in.  I would try and sound ‘RP’ and I shouldn’t have done.  It put a strain on me at interviews.  I always knew when I was boring them with it.  The minute I thought: ‘if they want me they’ll have to take me as I am’, I was more successful.

What advice can you give women working in radio today?

If you’ve got a passion to be a producer, stick to that but don’t be afraid to veer off the path.  Know what your strength is.  Some women might be quite technically minded.  A studio manager is a great route to becoming a producer.  Try out things, something might grab you!  Do not be afraid to try something out.

By Liz Jaynes, Promotions Producer at Radio 4 and 4 Extra

By Ruth Barcroft

As a journalist working for the Sony gold award-winning BBC Radio Humberside I can’t tell you how delighted we all are at the success of Beryl and Betty and the creative genius that is their producer, David Reeves.

Over six years they’ve brought joy both on and off-air. When they’re pre-recording their weekly show, it’s impossible to walk past their studio without being beckoned in for a gossip and a giggle. Beryl and Betty bring their East Yorkshire spirit and vibrancy, David translates this into hilarious and heart-warming radio waves, and the nature of the show dictates that whatever happens, happens.

So how did it happen?  Sound Women, this is the story of two female broadcasters, who came together with a male broadcaster, and with the support of their bosses, created radio gold.  On paper it sounds easy.  Indeed the idea of getting “real voices” to front a show is so simple, David says “I can’t believe nobody thought of it before. The fact that they were brilliant and we have chemistry is what makes it work”.

But this isn’t merely a tale of talent and luck either. How, for example, did two OAPs with (clearly) no previous presenting experience, get past the template of DQF-driven BBC broadcasting?  Perhaps it helps that theirs is an entertainment show with a niche audience, “tucked away” at the weekend?  And although it’s still subject to the same compliance, perhaps there’s more freedom – and therefore more fun – than with the flagship programmes?  Certainly the pure “joy” of the programme is something which the Sony judges emphasised in their decision to award gold.

One thing’s for sure, as David says, “This show has never been about ticking boxes”. And although he also doesn’t consider it a risk, some may think otherwise.  BBC Radio Humberside’s Station Editor, Simon Pattern, dared to be different. But Simon says he can’t take any credit.  ”It was a simple choice – to trust a producer who had the instinct that it could work and then support them to do that.  I see my role to try and encourage… and to create a space in which creative and yes, sometimes risky, ideas can be grown”.

And so within that space and freedom, ideas did grow. For several months prior to his Sony entry David gently pressed for the publicity and recognition he believed Beryl and Betty deserved.  His goal was to break the mould, and ultimately his vision and determination paid off.  So what’s the new mould?  And will Beryl and Betty change things for women in local radio?

As a female thirty-something, who’s been presenting for the past ten years, I’d like to think so.  In the wake of Sound Women’s launch last year, the picture for female broadcasters, particularly in local radio, was bleaker than ever.  Here at BBC Radio Humberside there still aren’t any women presenting during the week between 6am and 10pm.  It’s grim to even entertain the thought that female presenters are only suited to late night and weekend output.  Simon Pattern says “If we have failed to encourage or help grow women into on air roles – and I agree that the evidence to support this looks compelling as an industry – then the challenge should be to find out why that could be the case. If there are genuine barriers they need knocking down”.

And so the discourse continues as to what exactly those barriers are and how we generate more equality across broadcasting. In the meantime, they may not realise it, but it’s taken the friendship of two elderly women and one man, a chicken dinner-or-two and a smattering of the Buble to give that glass ceiling one hell of a smash. Surely, local radio broadcasting can never be the same again?

I asked Beryl and Betty how it felt to be older women on the radio?

Beryl – I’ve never heard a radio station with older people like us…
Betty – We’ve lived… Though her life was very different from mine.

Are you feminists?

Beryl – Oh yes, definitely!
David – Are you sure? It’s a bit of a loaded question…

Do you remember anything of the suffragette movement?

Beryl – My gran told me about it… To this day I wish people would vote. You should listen to the parties’ policies and vote for who you agree with. People gave their lives for our right to vote.  Of course governments make mistakes when they’re in power… We all do.

Who cooked the chicken dinner in your house?

Betty – My mum died when I was 15, so it was me, though my brother used to cook his own. I’ve got 10 children, so I had to cook for 12. I’d line up the plates and put the tatters out first, then the cabbage, then there was some who didn’t want that, but wanted cauliflower, then there’d be some that liked carrots but didn’t want turnip. They’re all faddy.

Beryl – In 1961 I think, I was ill with pleurisy so Stephen- bless him- had to do all the cooking. He brought up my dinner and I saw this green thing on my plate. I said ‘what’s that?’ and he said ‘cabbage’. I said ‘that’s not cabbage.’  It turns out he’d boiled a bit of lettuce thinking it was cabbage. He used to say to me “I hope I go first, because you could manage without me, but I couldn’t manage without you.” He could make a cup of tea, but that was his limit.

So his name was Stephen?

Beryl – Yes, that’s right
Betty – Mine was ‘big bald John’.

If they were to make a film of your life who should play you?  I hear Meryl Streep’s working on her Hull accent…

Beryl – Oh yes, Meryl Streep, she’d be good… And there’s Judi Dench – oh she’s a marvellous actress.  Either of them would do.

If the radio bosses said ‘sorry, we’re taking you off air for being old women’ what would you say?

Beryl – I’d ask what we’d done, as we can talk about anything.
Betty – We’re not too old. We’ll stop when we’re past it, and we’ll let you know when that is.

Interview by Ruth Barcroft of BBC Radio Humberside

by Miranda Sawyer

Betty and Beryl! Without doubt, the award of the evening went to two older ladies from Radio Humberside, who, rightly, won a Sony Gold for Best Entertainment Programme. They got a standing ovation and one of the biggest cheers of the night. Who says older women are overlooked, eh?

B and B grabbed the headlines, but the Sonys were different in other ways. For their 30th anniversary, the awards introduced live music, from Jesse J, Gary Barlow and Alexandra Burke – who wore a Pink Floyd T-shirt, pop reference spotters. They also moved the stage from the centre to the side, stage location spotters.

Other than that, what was new? Well, without a doubt, the Sonys this year felt like less of a lad-fest. Plenty of female producers on the winners’ mic; awards handed out by both men and women. Victoria Derbyshire won Best Speech Broadcaster, a real toughie; Fearne Cotton scooped Best Music Programme. There were still entire categories, such as Speech Radio Personality and Music Broadcaster, without a single female nominee, but there had clearly been a behind-the-scenes effort to make the awards more representative, at least in their presentation. Fewer ‘what a lovely dress’ comments from Chris Evans, too. Though poor old Andy Grey can’t help himself, can he? When Keys and Grey won Best Sports Programme for their talkSPORT show, Grey, in his onstage speech, referred to the only female team-member as “beautiful”. Andy, she’ll survive without your adjectives. Really, she will.

What else? It was utterly great to see 6Music win Station of the Year. Just two years ago, it really did look like it would close. The campaign to save 6Music was an amazing thing. Not only did it work, but it brought a confidence and belief to the station and its listeners; the same confidence and belief that led to it winning Sony Gold. 6Music is proof that when people with passion organise themselves and shout about what they believe in, then those at the top will listen.

Which gives me heart for Sound Women. We only came into existence after last year’s Sonys, sparked into action after the tiresome boys-together atmosphere and lack of female nominees. There’s still some way to some way to go; but I like to think that last night’s Sonys, with their more inclusive approach, their rejection of old-school golf club ideals, were influenced by our on-going campaign. Onwards and upwards!

Get Betty and Beryl on 5Live!

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Thanks to everyone who came along to BBC White City on 23rd April for the launch of the Sound Women Mentoring Scheme.

The result of a partnership between Sound Women and the BBC Academy, the scheme aims to progress the careers of 30 new mentees from across the BBC, commercial radio and the wider audio industry.

This is a powerful and positive partnership of skills and resources – the scheme will give our mentees training by some of the brightest and best women in the industry
Natasha Maw, BBC Academy

The mentors are made up of successful women working in radio, like Lorna Clarke, network manager for BBC Radio 2 and 6 Music, Somethin’ Else Head of Development Nicky Birch, and Real Radio North West’s Sam Walker, as well as BBC Radio 4 presenters Martha Kearney, Fi Glover and Jane Garvey.

Helen Blaby, Mentee, Presenter BBC Northampton says:

It was fantastic to meet so many inspirational women. Sometimes it can feel like you’re ploughing a lone furrow, so it was nice to hear from people in a similar position. I’m really looking forward to my year and intend to make the most of the amazing opportunity.

Alice Lloyd, Mentor, BBC Radio 1 adds:

I’ve never been a mentor.  I’ve never had a mentor (in an official capacity anyway).  So I wasn’t exactly sure what I was letting myself in for by joining up to the Sound Women mentor scheme.  I am pleased to confirm that after our first get together on Monday, it’s GOING TO BE OK!

After all, chuck a load of women into a room to let off steam about some of the challenges we face in the industry, and you’re onto a winner.  Add in an inspiring talk by Sue Aherne and I think by the end we were all massively up for the challenge ahead.  It’s fair to say that we’re in a difficult industry.  And that many of us struggle on, head down, hoping that things will just work out okay in the end.  

What is so great about Sound Women is that they’ve said, you don’t have to struggle on on your own.  We can create a network of women who are going to look out for each other, help each other where we can, and pass on valuable nuggets of information that we’ve all learnt along the way.  I don’t think it’s overly needy to want a bit of feedback and dialogue every so often, to boost your confidence and reassure you that you’re going in vaguely the right direction.  Women are good at that.  And this felt like a very nurturing place to be.

So now I’ve just got to hope that me and my mentee (bad word, felt by all!) get on okay and that I can be the mentor she deserves.  I’m honoured to have been asked, and if I can offer even half the pearls of wisdom that I’ve been offered by various people over the years, two of whom were in that room on Monday, then I’ll be pretty happy and I hope she will be too.

Sound Women is all about unlocking the potential of women in radio. We believe this mentoring scheme will help develop the careers of some extremely talented and capable women – and benefit the entire UK audio industry.

Maria Williams, Sound Women

It’s a question we’re always getting asked.  Radio is tough enough to get into at the best of times – and in a recession it’s harder than ever – so we asked some Sound Women how they got their foot in the door…

Veena V is a radio & TV presenter 

Research - Immerse yourself in radio!  Constantly listen, go on station websites, follow the presenters on twitter, and find out who the programme controllers are.

Apply – Don’t send generic emails; tailor it to the company you are applying to.  Make sure you’ve listened to the radio station pre-contact and done your research!  Most companies have information on their websites about how to apply.

Stay Determined - Be prepared for A LOT of knock backs even when applying for work experience. I’ve applied for several placements at the BBC and Channel 4 and didn’t get any of them!  Stay positive, keep working hard and putting yourself out there. I thought of a new quote the other day ‘If you want it, you’ve got to be on it’.  If you really want to work in the media industry, you’ve got to be listening to the radio all the time, know what’s going on and constantly be doing things to further your career.

Marsha Shandur is a music supervisor, radio presenter, voice-over artist and band manager.  Anya Hastwell is a jack-of-all-trades editor and writer.  

If you’re going to uni or college, find out whether the course has a student radio station affiliated to it. Or a student magazine if you want to get into print – it could be good to get experience in different areas of communication. Get involved in hospital radio. Look into community radio as well  and local radio stations – if you want to be a presenter, you need as much on air experience as possible. Then start trying to get as much work experience in professional stations as you can. Approach the producer/editor directly, by telephone first to check you have the correct email and so they know to expect your email.  You can approach presenters direct too. Tell them you want to do work experience on their particular show and what it is about that show you like.

Every single time you meet anyone in the industry (I’d say even in the music industry – you never know who’s friends with whom), chase them up with a “nice to meet you” email (email addresses are either obvious or easy to find on google). Every time you get an excuse to email them after that (their station is in the paper with something positive; they got nominated for a Sony; you loved a particular programme or feature), drop them an unobtrusive, “just wanted to say well done. Since we last spoke, I’ve had some more experience doing XXX”.  This is so that, when they need help with something, you’ll be a name they think of and your contact details (put your number after your name on the email) will be easy to read.

Then if you hear nothing, pester them about once every couple of weeks with a “just wanted to check you got my email” type email. Do this by hitting reply all to your original email (so they can scroll down and remember who you are).  Apply to as many stations as you can – although it’s better to do more work at fewer stations, than to do less work at more stations.  When a job comes up, they’re more likely to give it to the person who has been around a lot, than someone who’s just been there one day.

People in the media tend to be so overstretched that they don’t always have time to consider every CV they’re sent. They make gut decisions on whether or not someone is employable – but only when they meet them in the flesh.  So whenever you can, ask people in the industry out for a cup of coffee. Phrase it as something like, “I just wondered if you had 20 minutes free one afternoon when I could buy you a coffee and pick your brains?”.  They’ll almost always pay for the coffee, but you should offer to.

If you’re still a student, go to as many student radio conferences as you can. If you’re not, go the Radio Academy and go to as many talks as you can. Make friends with your peers as well as your superiors – they’ll be the ones in the future who’ll be open to helping you because you were in the same boat at the same time. Also keep yourself informed with what’s going on in the media by reading the trade media sites Media Week, Press Gazette, Journalism.co.uk and Media Digest to keep you in the know about the world of media.

Anna Bertmark is a Sound Supervisor/Designer and Co-Director at Attic Sound and Music Ltd

Personality is as important (if not more) as having suitable skills when applying for work experience. It’s important that your potential employer feels like you can slot into the team and will get along well with your co-workers.

Make sure that you show that you WANT to work for the company. Always do a bit of research of the company and employees of the company that you’re meeting/contacting. Keep your application relevant; contacting a sound facility and saying you want to work with music isn’t going to get you in. They are usually looking for someone who can quickly learn the ropes and who want to be good at the tasks that are given to you. If you are turned town – call back and find out why. It’s the only way to develop and you’ll have a better chance next time.  Don’t be afraid to be persistent with the company you really want to work for – they will give you a chance in the end if you keep at it. Don’t give up and stay positive!

One Sound Woman sounds a cautionary note, and has asked not to be named.

I’ve done two work experiences. Both required hard work, determination, a constant smile and willingness to do anything thrown at me. Those are all givens. Both work experiences were wonderful, and I have nothing negative to say about either one of them. They could not have been better. Years of free work on college radio and community radio never got me the opportunities that a few weeks of work experience have afforded.

However, my story of getting the work experiences in the first place is not, I’m afraid, very encouraging. I did what the careers services and media clubs recommended. At CV workshops, my CV was held up as a model of an excellent CV. I sent emails to production companies. I called them. I got on LinkedIn and I went to networking sessions.

In the end, I got one of my work experience placements by paying £70 to attend an exclusive conference, where I happened to meet the super-friendly, kind, and encouraging ED of a production company. So, that was luck and money. And I got my other work experience because a friend flagged my name. That was luck and knowing people. Now, when friends ask me what advice I have for them trying to get work experience, I don’t have anything really useful to say. Spend £70 out of your Jobseeker’s Allowance to go to a conference, where you just *might* meet someone?

But even once you’ve gotten the work experience, of course, you have to prove know you know you’re doing and be awesome. As all you Sound Women, I’m sure of this, already are.

Many thanks to all our work experience whistleblowers.  We’d also just flag up opportunities in  the indie sector.  Many people working in the industry started by doing work experience with an independent radio production company, somehow managed to make themselves indispensible, and ended up being hired. Look out for the right indie for you – most specialise in a particular area like music radio, documentaries, sport, drama or comedy  - then approach them direct to persuade them why you’re so very right for them.

Best of luck – and if you have any other tips please let us know!

The first ever Sound Woman event was the hottest ticket in town, as women from all corners of the radio industry gathered to hear journalist and radio critic Miranda Sawyer in conversation with BBC Radio 1′s first female DJ – the legendary Annie Nightingale MBE.

The event was a chance for all our members to get together and celebrate the successful launch of Sound Women. So at the very grand University Women’s Club in London’s Mayfair (because we’re worth it), and over wine and sandwiches (thank you BauerMedia), around ninety women met, talked about radio, and raised a glass to the industry they love.

In the library, Sound Women founder Maria Williams welcomed everyone:

Sound Women wants equality for all women in audio. You might be just starting out, or in the middle of a rich and varied career. Whether you’re the next Director General, a presenter on Roundhouse Radio, or leading the Capital Newsroom, Sound Women is for you.

We felt honoured to have Annie Nightingale with us on the night. Annie talked to Miranda Sawyer about her extraordinary career, and revealed how she persuaded the all-male bosses of Radio 1 to give her a radio show in 1970. We heard clips of her starting out, including one where she explained why she preferred broadcasting on radio to playing in a club “because people don’t throw things at you”.

You can listen to her speech in full here:

Annie is a true pioneer for all women in radio. She revealed how surprised she was, when after opening the door at Radio 1, it took another 12 years for the next female DJ to come along, and talked very openly about the ups and downs in her career. We heard about her mugging in Havana, to knowing that “the tap on the shoulder” could come at any time, and her proudest moment collecting the Sony Award for Special Achievement in 2011.

In the audience Q&A the Queen of Breaks demonstrated her passion for music, wicked sense of humour and good sense. She advised one young broadcaster starting out to “be yourself, be the person you would want to work with” but was also astounded that 40 years on, women are still asking for advice on how to succeed in the industry.

We thank Annie for coming to talk to us on a cold January evening, and for the time she spent afterwards talking to people individually.

The night ended with a Fi Glover raffle spectacular!  1Xtra DJ Gemma Cairney won a digital radio, Radio 4 presenter Jane Garvey gave away a visit to the historic Woman’s Hour studios, and 6 Music’s Nemone drew the winner of backstage passes to see Jamie Cullum at the Cheltenham Jazz Festival, and a Green and Blacks chocolate hamper.

We’re determined to do this again soon, and to set up events all over the country. If you’d like to help us please get involved by email.

Special thanks to Folded Wing for their behind-the-scenes podcast of the event which you can listen to here:

Drinks and sandwiches sponsored by Bauer Media.

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